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17th April 2003 04:26 AM –
chrix said:
God didn't create the world
in 6 days. Genesis is not a Lie, but it was a poem written to the glorify
God, but the peotic theme is about the creation of the world.
So chrix you are telling me that Genesis is
only a poem? Excuse my rashness for I am only human, but are you willing
to back up your bold claims and defend your faith? Step into the ring my
brother and we will go a few rounds - if you truly believe that God did
not create the world in just 6 days.
It is a bit like the song
the '12 days of Christmas, one the first day of christmas, ...on the
second day of christmas' and so on.... So the writer was writing in the
peotic style of that time where on the 7th day (7 means perfection) God
stopped and rest. Meaning he created the world in perfection.
It is bad analogy to compare works by
fallible men with the Holy Scriptures inspired by an infallible God. Ah,
God gave you eyes but you do not see, He gave you ears but you do not
hear.
When the writer said God
created Adam, well Adam means "mankind" in hebrew , and Eve "women(kind)".
This simply shows that God created Both Mankind and Women(kind)
No my brother it means He created Adam – our
forefather the first man, and Eve his helper, wife, and companion, the
first woman, from Adam’s own flesh.
If Adam and Eve had only 3
sons, Cain Abel and Seth, How did they reproduced ?
And now read further on in Genesis. For it
is written: “And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight
hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.” Genesis 5:4 KJV
That seems to be a reoccuring problem
nowadays - not reading far enough in Scripture.
Cain represented the
Cannanites and Abel another tribe, the whole story is this.
It is not Cain who represented the
Canaanites but Noah’s son Ham who was cursed by his father who was the
father of Canaan and the forefather of the Canaanites. Abel by the way was
murdered by Cain, therefore would not of had any tribe.
(think of George Owells
Animal farm style of writing).
Another bad analogy.
God created Humans, they sin
against Him, they fought with each other. they need a saviour.
They need a Savior because they have
rebelled against God in choosing to disobey God. As a consequence death,
suffering, mutation, diseases, bloodshed and the like entered the world
for God has removed His eternal sustaining power because of sin. And thus
He sent Jesus Christ His beloved son to pay the price for man’s
redemption.
So that's it. The bible is
not a lie, but Genesis simply wasn't out there to teach you about History
or Medicine or How creation started. How can the earth be only 6000 years
?
It is not as easy as that my brother. It is
a much bigger topic than you anticipate for there are dark forces at work
here that is beyond simple explanations.
Please christians. Science
has showed that earth is probably 500000mil years old. They can't be that
off.
You have forgotten that science is merely
the study of God’s creation and a fallible convention of man and cannot be
used in substitution of Scripture. Rather let the HS guide you to the
truth of God.
Did we come from Apes ? The
bible didn't say... so i don't know. My guess is No,, it is just my
Guess.. But it really didn't say.
Tell me was God an ape? No, because we were
made in the image of God. Some of us like to think so because they have
been duped by Satan to conclude that the ape kind was in their line of
ancestry - for they have embraced the lies of evolution rather than stand
on the truth of God.
So chrix you are telling me that Genesis is only a
poem?
22nd April 2003 10:30 AM
- lucaspa said: Not only a poem, but a poem. Which is one of several
reasons not to read it literally. Go to any synagogue on any Sabbath and
listen to the Cantor. The Cantor is singing the Torah, including Genesis.
Why? Because Genesis is a poem meant to be sung. The repitition of certain
phrases is a tip-off. Such as "evening and morning". Those are in there to
keep the meter in Hebrew.
Step into the ring my brother and we will go a few
rounds - if you truly believe that God did not create the world in just 6
days.
I accept that God did not create the world in 6
days. One reason is that Genesis 2:4b says that God created the world in
one day. "in the day" (beyom). Now, since we have contradictory accounts
within Genesis, the conclusion is that neither account was meant to be
read literally.
I have a question for you. Genesis, like the rest of
the Bible, exists to tell you theology. What are the theological messages
of Genesis 1? You are so busy reading it as literal history, have you even
stopped to consider the theology?
It is bad analogy to compare works by fallible men
with the Holy Scriptures inspired by an infallible God.
But interpreted by fallible men. How are you so sure
that your, fallible man, interpretation is the correct one?
Ah, God gave you eyes but you do not see, He gave
you ears but you do not hear.
Nicely said. Applies perfectly to young earth
creationists, don't you think?
And now read further on in Genesis. For it is
written: “And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight
hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.” Genesis 5:4 KJV
1. So we have incest?
2. If you are reading literally, Seth and Cain are married before this
passage saying that Adam and Eve had daughters. Aren't you here deviating
from the inspired word of God and inserting your own ideas?
They need a Savior because they have rebelled
against God in choosing to disobey God. As a consequence death, suffering,
mutation, diseases, bloodshed and the like entered the world for God has
removed His eternal sustaining power because of sin.
Again you seem to be inserting your ideas into
scripture. WHere does it say that mutation and disease entered the world?
That seems to be your intepretation and not the "inspired word of God".
So, how do you know your interpretation is correct?
You have forgotten that science is merely the study
of God’s creation and a fallible convention of man and cannot be used in
substitution of Scripture.
And you seem to have forgotten that the world IS
God's Creation. Therefore all the evidence in it must have been put there
by God. You seem to place scripture above God's Creation. Why? Are you
aware that Christianity has held the "two books" doctrine and treated them
as equals? Is it possible that you have substituted worship of the Bible
for worship of God?
Rather let the HS guide you to the truth of God.
And all those Christians that were led to decide
that Genesis was not literal and God created by evolution were not led by
the HS?
Tell me was God an ape? No, because we were made in
the image of God.
We are apes. In the family "Ape". So if you are
saying that God has our physical form, then you are saying that God is an
ape.
However, do you see what you are doing here? You are
making God a physical creature with a physical form. Did Moses see a human
form on the mountain? Or did Moses see a burning bush that was not
consumed.
I think you have told us your real objection to
evolution: human pride. Humans want to be special in and of themselves.
Evolution "demotes" humans to not being special on their own. They are
just another animal. So, if we are special in God's sight, then it must be
only because God decides we are special. While couching your argument in
terms that evolution denigrates God, I submit that what you really mean is
that you don't want to be dependent on God. You want to be special
independent of God, so you want to be created to be like God. Being like
God makes you special no matter what God decides afterward. It's a done
deal.
Instead, evolution forces you to be dependent on God
to be considered special. It is your pride that is hurt.
Now, as to the phrase "image of God", in that time period in the MidEast,
to be "in the image" meant something quite different than what you say.
There are several other documents talking about ambassadors from one
country to another. In those times of primitive communication, an
ambassador didn't have time to communicate back with the king, like we can
now. Therefore ambassadors were given authority to negotiate and make
binding agreements. When this was given, the ambassador was said to be "in
the image of" the king involve. He represented the king and could make
decisions for that king.
And this is what the phrase means in Genesis. God is trusting humans to
make binding decisions regarding the use (or abuse) of the earth and the
creatures on it. We get to act in the stead of God.
Some of us like to think so because they have been
duped by Satan to conclude that the ape kind was in their line of ancestry
- for they have embraced the lies of evolution rather than stand on the
truth of God.
Well, that does keep you from considering that you
are worshipping the false god of your erroneous interpretation of Genesis.
Of course, it ignores that the people that showed a 6 day creation to be
false were all Christians and most of them were ministers. However,
thinking they were duped is a comfortable fantasy.
To God be the Glory!
Agree. And there is just as much glory in creating
by the processes discovered by science as by a 144 hour creation.
22nd April 2003 01:05 PM -
lucaspa said: Not only a poem, but a
poem. Which is one of several reasons not to read it literally. Go to any
synagogue on any Sabbath and listen to the Cantor. The Cantor is singing
the Torah, including Genesis. Why? Because Genesis is a poem meant to be
sung. The repitition of certain phrases is a tip-off. Such as "evening and
morning". Those are in there to keep the meter in Hebrew.
That seems to be a pervasive way of thinking this day and age, something
that is not exclusively held by this generation. Not taking Genesis
literally has little to do with it being poetry - for there are no rhymes,
no rhythms, no alliterations, no iambic pentameter, nor are there
metaphors or simile’s associated with any line in the creation of Genesis.
I do have a minor in English you know and Genesis is no Shakespeare, for
it is written as literal history. And if it was meant to be only a poem,
then it is poor poetry. Those who read it as songs do so to write into
their hearts and minds not because it is poetry but because they believe
it to be the inspired word of God and the basis of their faith, just as I
do when I wish to memorize Scripture.
I accept that God did not create the world in 6
days. One reason is that Genesis 2:4b says that God created the world in
one day. "in the day" (beyom). Now, since we have contradictory accounts
within Genesis, the conclusion is that neither account was meant to be
read literally.
You accept. Maybe that is the problem, accepting and having faith in it
are two different things. The devil acknowledges in the existence of God,
and yet it is quite a different type of acknowledgement is it not? I’ve
addressed this day thing before. Anyway tell me if the word day does not
mean day when it clearly says day, then when does it mean day when it says
day? You mean to tell me that the word day means what a thousand? A
million years? A billion years? I don’t think that I am that gullible now.
And by the way we are talking about the omnipotent God of the Bible right?
You realize He is not confined to our time for He is God, and has always
been and will always be.
I have a question for you. Genesis, like the rest of
the Bible, exists to tell you theology. What are the theological messages
of Genesis 1? You are so busy reading it as literal history, have you even
stopped to consider the theology?
Ask God first and He will show you His truth, it is that God created the
world as He had said and if you read further on it is the foundation of
all Christian doctrines or have you forgotten that? Theology is a term
invented by man, and therefore fallible and does not aid me in
understanding Scripture
But interpreted by fallible men. How are you so sure
that your, fallible man, interpretation is the correct one?
I have answered this before in this thread.
Nicely said. Applies perfectly to young earth
creationists, don't you think?
Yes, it is a shame you do not hear the word of God, but rather turned your
eyes and ears to the theories of men and to the lies of the father of all
lies himself – Lucifer.
1. So we have incest?
2. If you are reading literally, Seth and Cain are married before this
passage saying that Adam and Eve had daughters. Aren't you here deviating
from the inspired word of God and inserting your own ideas?
Incest by the way is a modern term. If you note it is not until Moses’
time that God had ordered that close relations could no longer marry
because He is God you know and foresaw the effects of interbreeding. And
by the way according to evolutionary thinking – incest should be no issue
should it?
Again you seem to be inserting your ideas into
scripture. WHere does it say that mutation and disease entered the world?
That seems to be your intepretation and not the "inspired word of God".
So, how do you know your interpretation is correct?
What own ideas? This is nothing new. This belief is held by the children
of God who have not compromised the authority of His words with theories
by fallible men. How do I know it is correct? I know this because of my
absolute faith in God and His truth and from the total dedication of my
life to Jesus Christ.
And you seem to have forgotten that the world IS
God's Creation. Therefore all the evidence in it must have been put there
by God. You seem to place scripture above God's Creation. Why? Are you
aware that Christianity has held the "two books" doctrine and treated them
as equals? Is it possible that you have substituted worship of the Bible
for worship of God?
Yes it is His creation, but it is a fallen creation, cursed by God. Or
have you also forgotten the sin factor as many others have? And besides
would the God of the Bible, a perfect and loving God create an imperfect
world so that He can watch and see his creation struggle, maimed and die
all at His whim? What sort of god is that? Surely this does not show a god
of love as he claims to be? Worship of God stems from the truth of what He
has revealed to us in the Scriptures, not what men can see in nature. By
your logic you are saying that it is then okay to worship His creation
since God created it? Because that is exactly what you are doing.
And all those
Christians that were led to decide that Genesis was not literal and God
created by evolution were not led by the HS?
They are all fallible men as you and myself. I think I have addressed this
issue much earlier and I see no need to repeat myself. I will tell you
though that there are spiritual forces at work here that you have yet to
recognize for you insist on reading your Bible as a book of moral stories
and allegories and not as the inspired word of God and in your continued
worshipping of a god of an old earth.
We are apes. In the family "Ape". So if you are
saying that God has our physical form, then you are saying that God is an
ape.
You are an ape, not me. Which is an insult to the apes and not you,
because instead of giving God credit for what He said He has done using
the mind He has given you, you have become futile in your thoughts because
you give not God the credit He deserves – rather say we are the result of
unguided processes? So tell me what is your definition of “image” if it
does not mean likeness?
However, do you see what you are doing here? You are
making God a physical creature with a physical form. Did Moses see a human
form on the mountain? Or did Moses see a burning bush that was not
consumed.
I know what it is that God is telling me and that is what you are hearing
- as it has been written so it had been done. Do you know what it is that
you are doing? For He has created us in His physical manifestation, in the
likeness of God we were created. If the likeness be spiritual in nature,
mental capacity, moral conduct or likewise – why do we have so much
animosity for our fellow man? Is hatred also the character of our God? And
besides if we descended from apes why was Jesus not born among apes? God
is not simply thought. He chooses whatever form He pleases to reveal His
divine nature to man and that likeness is that of man.
I think you have told us your real objection to
evolution: human pride. Humans want to be special in and of themselves.
I have not yet begun to tell you my objections to your sacred cow of
evolution. Of course if you have followed this thread from the beginning
there is little that I can say to convince anyone of anything since
everyone must walk their own faith and live their own lives, for they will
die their own deaths and be judged by God in His own way. If you seek
absolute proof of God’s truth, you will find it not in the theories of
men, but only in the absolute authority of the word of God when it touches
on everything including that of origins.
Evolution "demotes" humans to not being special on
their own. They are just another animal. So, if we are special in God's
sight, then it must be only because God decides we are special. While
couching your argument in terms that evolution denigrates God, I submit
that what you really mean is that you don't want to be dependent on God.
No, evolution demotes us to be less than animals, for it is an insult to
animals to compare ourselves to them. Because God has given us a mind and
yet we do not think of Him, and has given us a tongue and we praise Him
not for His continued sustenance of His fallen creation. Instead of using
our God given intellect to glorify and thank Him, we have become futile in
our thoughts and no longer homo sapiens – (man the wise), but homo
stolitus (man the fool). For He has given us His truth and yet we say it
is a lie. He has given us light and yet we have chosen darkness. He has
given us love and yet we have chosen hate. He has offered us life and yet
we have chosen death.
You want to be special independent of God, so you
want to be created to be like God.
Yes I do feel special, not because you say so, but because in God’s
infinite love and mercy He has chosen to save an unworthy wretch as
myself. And He did create us in His image, thus the reason we were not
obliterated or cast into the pits of hell along with the rebellious angels
- who by the way cannot be redeemed. We however are held with more value
than the life of His own Son. Now would you send your own son to die for a
race of apes? Absurd to think so isn’t it?
Being like God makes you special no matter what God
decides afterward. It's a done deal.
Being in His image yes, like Him hardly. It is men who reject God and His
truth that call themselves gods – the gods of a decrepit earth that is.
Instead, evolution forces you to be dependent on God
to be considered special. It is your pride that is hurt.
My pride is of no concern here, nor is it of any value, for I live on my
faith in the absolute authority of the word of God, not the fallible
theories of men - whether it be creationism or evolution. Yes I have
pride, not in myself but in an infinitely wise and powerful creator who
can create whatever and however He chooses for His own pleasure and
purpose, despite the fallible theories of men to discredit Him.
Now, as to the phrase "image of God", in that time
period in the MidEast, to be "in the image" meant something quite
different than what you say. There are several other documents talking
about ambassadors from one country to another. In those times of primitive
communication, an ambassador didn't have time to communicate back with the
king, like we can now. Therefore ambassadors were given authority to
negotiate and make binding agreements. When this was given, the ambassador
was said to be "in the image of" the king involve. He represented the king
and could make decisions for that king. And this is what the phrase means
in Genesis. God is trusting humans to make binding decisions regarding the
use (or abuse) of the earth and the creatures on it. We get to act in the
stead of God.
Yes another fallible theory by fallible men. Nothing I haven’t heard
before. If it is not Biblically based don’t waste your time or mine. We
are in no position to make any decision in regards to His creation. God
allows what He sees fit. He is God you know – whatever theories surmised
to explain otherwise does not invalidate the truth of God, it exists
irregardless of our adherence to them.
Well, what does keep you from considering that you
are worshipping the false god of your erroneous interpretation of Genesis.
Of course, it ignores that the people that showed a 6 day creation to be
false were all Christians and most of them were ministers. However,
thinking they were duped is a comfortable fantasy.
No, my God is an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God who holds the
answers to the death, suffering, mutations, hate, bloodshed, wickedness,
atrocities, lawlessness and the like – while your god uses these very
things to bring about his creation. What sort of god is that? A false god
is one who is a powerless weakling, for you have reduced the God of the
Bible into an ogre of a god having no sovereignty of such things.
Agree. And there is just as much glory in creating
by the processes discovered by science as by a 144 hour creation.
Glorify man then if it pleases you, for have you not read that we cannot
serve two masters as you have come to do. My God is worthy and deserves my
praise, whereas no man is worthy of any praise unless he speaks only of
God’s truth.
And besides
would the God of the Bible, a perfect and loving God create an imperfect
world so that He can watch and see his creation struggle, maimed and die
all at His whim? What sort of god is that?
22nd April 2003 03:28 PM -
lucaspa said:
God says in Genesis 1 that creation is "good". He
never says creation is perfect. Again, you are taking your
fallible human vision and trying to tell God how He has to have done
things.
Creation is not struggling and dieing at God's
whim. It is struggling because God made a universe with meaning. If God
pulls the strings so that nothing bad ever happens, then life has no
meaning. We are nothing but puppets and playthings for God. You ask
what sort of God made the universe through evolution? A God who so
loves His creations that He wants their lives to have meaning. A God who
wants their actions to mean something, either good or bad. A God who will
share triumph and grief, who will rejoice at heroism against great odds,
who will grieve with those hurt or who have lost loved ones, but who so
loves Creation that He will not deprive His creatures of the meaning of
their lives.
Surely this does not show a god of love as he claims
to be?
It shows a god of so much love that He is beyond
your imagination.
That seems
to be a pervasive way of thinking this day and age, something that is not
exclusively held by this generation. Not taking Genesis literally has
little to do with it being poetry - for there are no rhymes, no rhythms,
no alliterations, no iambic pentameter, nor are there metaphors or
simile’s associated with any line in the creation of Genesis.
Oh, there is meter and rhythms if you use the
Hebrew. That is why it is sung! BTW, iambic pentameter is only one
possible meter. However, there are metaphors. For instance, you don't
really think the sun and moon "rule" over the day and night, do you?
That's a metaphor. Nor do you think that the sea "brought forth" life as
stated, do you? Another metaphor. According to your literalistic reading,
didn't God "speak" and all these creatures appear?
I do have a minor in English you know and Genesis is
no Shakespeare, for it is written as literal history.
Unfortunately, English isn't the language Genesis
was written is, is it? That's why I told you go to a synagogue where
Genesis is sung in the original language.
And if it was meant to be only a poem, then it is
poor poetry.
Everybody's a critic!
You accept. Maybe that is the problem, accepting
and having faith in it are two different things.
Yes, they are. Acceptance means facing the evidence
and having no choice. Accepting that I sin is facing the evidence and
having no choice. Your acceptance of your fallibility is in the same
category. Faith is believing something is true without solid evidence.
The evidence God left in His Creation and the evidence in the Bible leave
me no choice but to accept that Genesis 1 is not literal history.
Anyway tell me if the word day does not mean day
when it clearly says day, then when does it mean day when it says day?
We have the word "yom" in Genesis 1 and the modified
word "beyom" in Genesis 2:4b. Look at a Hebrew dictionary. The prefix
"be" means "within", so that "beyom" becomes "within the day". Elsewhere
in the Bible "beyom" also means a time period within a 24 hour day. For
instance, Genesis 2:17. When God tells Adam he will die "in the same day",
the word in Hebrew is "beyom".
You mean to tell me that the word day means what a
thousand? A million years? A billion years?
Crusadar, please read what I'm saying. It will keep
you from making strawmen and keep the discussion on track. I didn't say
that at all. I said Genesis 2:4b states that God made the earth in one day right after the preceding verses have been telling us God took 6
days.
Now, since "we are talking about the omnipotent God
of the Bible", the only legitimate reason that this contradiction exists
is to tell us that neither creation story is to be read literally.
Ask God first and He will show you His truth,
I asked you. What has God told you about it?
it is that God created the world as He had said and
if you read further on it is the foundation of all Christian doctrines or
have you forgotten that?
Only one phrase of that is theology: "it is that
God created the world". The "as He said" is a how of creation. Genesis 1
has two parts: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
That is a statement of faith and theology. One deity who created the
universe. The rest of Genesis 1 is a particular sequence and timing of
creation. So tell me, if God creates by a different mechanism -- say
evolution -- how does that challenge Judaism or Christianity? Does God
cease to be God if He creates by a way different from your literal
interpretation?
Theology is a term invented by man, and therefore
fallible and does not aid me in understanding Scripture.
Theology, according to Merriam-Webster, is "the
study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study
of God and of God's relation to the world" The term may be invented by
man, but then all terms are invented by man. Nowhere does it say God
invented language. Understanding the relation of God to the world is
theology, and you understand scripture for that very purpose, don't you?
C'mon, don't you study Scripture to understand God and the purpose God
meant and has for the world? That's theology.
So, what does Genesis 1 try to tell you about God's
relation to the world? What does Genesis 1 tell you about God? You are so
busy insisting Genesis is literal history that you haven't even thought
about that, have you? After all, the first thing you do is tell me to ask
God! Well, don't you think God's Word should tell us something about these
issues?
I have
answered this before in this thread.
Humor me, please, and don't make me scroll thru 130
posts. You do admit that your interpretation, coming from fallible man,
is fallible, don't you?
Yes, it is
a shame you do not hear the word of God, but rather turned your eyes and
ears to the theories of men and to the lies of the father of all lies
himself – Lucifer.
And here is
where creationists always retreat to: the people who disagree with them
are possessed of Lucifer. Why don't you consider that we can be just as
faithful and are really hearing the word of God? Why don't you stop to
consider that it is perhaps you who have gone astray? At least we give
you the benefit of the doubt.
2304031407 - lucaspa said:
Creation is not struggling
and dieing at God's whim. It is struggling because God made a universe
with meaning.
Then what is there to be gained from dying for it is the end of this
reality? What meaning is there in death? What can you learn from
suffering? Does anyone ever really enjoy suffering?
If God pulls the strings so that nothing bad ever
happens, then life has no meaning.
Life has meaning only when we look at God and His truth. For you should
realize our only purpose in life is to worship, praise and be in communion
with God and everything else that we do should stem from that.
We are nothing but puppets and playthings for God.
You ask what sort of God made the universe through evolution? A God who so
loves His creations that He wants their lives to have meaning.
Evolution requires no meaning nor purpose for it is an unguided and blind
process.
A God who wants their actions to mean something,
either good or bad. A God who will share triumph and grief, who will
rejoice at heroism against great odds, who will grieve with those hurt or
who have lost loved ones, but who so loves Creation that He will not
deprive His creatures of the meaning of their lives.
It shows a god of so much love that He is beyond your imagination.
God is much bigger than the little picture you have just painted of him in
your fallen view of what He represents my brother - for He is infinitely
bigger than you can ever imagine.
Crusader, please read what I'm saying. It will keep
you from making strawmen and keep the discussion on track. I didn't say
that at all. I said Genesis 2:4b states that God made the earth in one day
right after the preceding verses have been telling us God took 6 days.
It is evolutionary thinking and incredulity of Scripture that begets straw
men, lucaspa, not the “assumed” inconsistencies. You should know God’s
truth cannot be refuted by mere mortals such as ourselves, nor can it be
read simply as a literary canon as so many have done.
Now, since "we are talking about the omnipotent God
of the Bible", the only legitimate reason that this contradiction exists
is to tell us that neither creation story is to be read literally.
Nor can it be concluded with any theory surmised from “assumed”
contradictions and incredulity of Scripture.
Only one phrase of that is theology: "it is that
God created the world". The "as He said" is a how of creation. Genesis 1
has two parts: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
That is a statement of faith and theology.
Let’s not beat around the bush with personal interpretations and get to
the meat of the matter. If your point is to prove that the God did not
create the universe in 6 literal days, then why continue to say 6 days. If
it has become so obvious that this was not the case then why continue to
print Bibles and allow the word day in Genesis to remain. Should it not be
altered to 6 _________ (fill in the blank) to fit the pervasive beliefs of
the time?
So, what does Genesis 1 try to tell you about God's
relation to the world? What does Genesis 1 tell you about God? You are so
busy insisting Genesis is literal history that you haven't even thought
about that, have you? After all, the first thing you do is tell me to ask
God! Well, don't you think God's Word should tell us something about these
issues?
I have thought about that (after praying first of course) and it tells me
God created in 6 days. Of course God could of also done it in no day at
all like 6 seconds. Look, the point is I believe Satan is using the same
trick on the believers of today as He has done many times since man’s
beginnings in the Garden of Eden.
We have not become immune to Satan’s treacheries despite our modern
scientific advancements. The lie has simply taken another form, in that
which we are familiar with - evolution. Theistic evolution and the like
gives no answers as to how God has created, it has instead committed a
form of ‘spiritual fornication’ in compromising the authority of the Word
of God with the world and thus have undermined all its infallible truths.
You do admit that your interpretation, coming from
fallible man, is fallible, don't you?
Perhaps but then that would mean that our God is also fallible since His
words are inconsistent for I stand only His word and no fallible theories
of men.
And here is where creationists always retreat to:
the people who disagree with them are possessed of Lucifer. Why don't you
consider that we can be just as faithful and are really hearing the word
of God? Why don't you stop to consider that it is perhaps you who have
gone astray? At least we give you the benefit of the doubt.
No my brother it is not me you disagree with, it is the Holy Scriptures
that you have disagreed with. It is of no importance to me what you
profess to believe about the Word of God, for as I have said in an earlier
post, faith alone without work is worthless. It has not occurred to me
that I have gone astray. It is through prayer and devotion that I am
guided to what I say - not theories of men. And because of my absolute
trust in God and His infallible Truth, I do not have the luxury of any
doubt in my God as you have.
This is where you derail the discussion. What you
have is an ironclad excuse. Can't answer an argument? Your opponent does
not listen to God and instead is possessed of Lucifer. It's a
one-size-fits-all excuse that surrenders reason and trust.
No brother, it is where I pointed you to the truth. Deny Satan’s presence
if you wish. It does not change the facts, for you do so at your own risk.
Have you not read:
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring
lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Pe 5:8
And I am afraid you are but speaking from the belly of this beast.
Now, for students of human and Christian history,
your statement is very scary. It is the first step in demonizing your
opponents and stripping them of humanity and respect. After all, if we
are deliberately not listening to God and instead listening to Satan, then
it becomes easy to justfiy whatever violence you choose to use to correct
us. You don't have to use reason anymore, after all, those only listening
to Lucifer won't respond to reason. Right?This is the exact argument the
Inquisition used: we are on the side of God and anyone against us is thus
in rebellion against God.
Scary to you perhaps because the Truth of God does do that to Satan you
know. It frightens people because they profess to be Christians and yet
carry not their cross and suffer not for Christ. This is no inquisition it
is but a discussion. No brother, any justification will be dealt with by
God for I am not your judge, God is. For I too will be judged by God but
know that I will have no fear of God’s judgment for I know Jesus Christ
will be in my defense for He lives within my heart.
Of course, when we look at the premises behind the
argument we see some other scary things.
1. You identify yourself with God and are sure anyone that does not agree
with you is against God. This is the worst sort of arrogance and
demagoguery.
2. The only way you can tell we are listening to Lucifer is that we don't
agree with you. This is of course circular reasoning, but you don't seem
to care.
Scares the devil out you does it not? The only way true believers can tell
if anything is truth is in the degree of deviation from God’s words. And
what you have professed thus far deviates to extremes from the Scriptures.
Now, if you notice, theistic evolutionists don't
demonize creationists the same way. For the most part, we give you the
benefit of the doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs.
The more I read your rationalizations the more I realize that your faith
rests on theories and what you see rather than on what God’s word says –
that is all I see. I can see that you resort to debate tactics and hide
behind the theories of men rather than stand on the Truth of God. There is
a difference in my faith in God, in that I have left no room for doubt.
However, I'm beginning to question the motives of
the most right-wing creationists such as yourself and FoC. Creationism
becomes an easy way to identify your friends and those who also want
power. Like communism ideology became the way to unite and identify those
like Lenin and Stalin who wanted power.
You question us because we bring the truth of God which you wish not hear
for your mind has no longer room for it, for it has become infested with
the lies and myths of evolution. Do not equate creationism to communism –
it seriously is bad analogy.
One hypothesis that fits is that you are undercover
atheists out to destroy Christianity the only way it can be destroyed: by
insisting that it contradicts the evidence in the physical universe that
everyone can see.
An extremely erroneous and unsupported hypothesis based simply on
rejection of God’s truth and man’s lies - if I ever saw one. It
contradicts the words of Scripture - not the evidence, for evidence is
meaningless without a belief system to interpret the evidence.
Another is that you really are making a grab for
power like the Inquisition.
No brother, power and glory is reserved exclusively for our God and
power is neither needed nor required to understand truth nor enforce it -
for belief in God’s Truth requires no coaxing nor unsurmountable evidence,
but by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Creationism is not a way to identify God’s true children for it is but a
side issue. It is the presence of Jesus Christ in one’s hearts that does
so, you should be aware of that – and manifests in what they hold with
authority – man’s theories or God’s words. And besides my faith in God
does not rest on creationism being proven true or not and in no way
identifies others, for his Truth rests not on fallible theories but on the
absolute authority of His Word.
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